In a special episode that traverses the intricate landscapes of fatherhood, education, and advocacy, we are honored to host Allan Shedlin, a beacon for families and the force behind the Daddying Film Festival (D3F). Allan, whose career spans from the classroom to influential policy advisory roles, shares his profound journey into the realm of 'Daddying'—a concept he defines as the nurturing, lifelong commitment to fatherhood. This discussion sheds light on the evolution of fatherhood, the significance of early education at the National Elementary School Center, and the transformative power of positive dad involvement.
Allan Shedlin, founder of REEL Fathers and DADvocacy Consulting Group (DCG), has dedicated his life to elevating the importance of involved fatherhood. His work, deeply rooted in his experiences as a father and grandfather, has led to the creation of the world’s first film festival exclusively dedicated to celebrating and promoting positive father involvement: The Daddying Film Festival and Forum.
For details on how to submit your films, important dates, and to dive deeper into Allan Shedlin's work and the mission of DCG and D3F, check out the show notes and our website. Explore key blog posts that offer a snapshot of Allan's perspectives and the festival's mission:
Join us in this compelling exploration of daddying with Allan Shedlin, and be part of a movement that celebrates the heart and soul of fatherhood through the powerful medium of film.
Chapters:
00:00 - Introduction to Alan Shedlin
01:15 - The Creation of the Real Fathers Film Festival
05:03 - The Importance of Finding Strengths in Children
06:26 -The Concept of 'Daddying'
10:14 - The Journey to Writing a Book on Fatherhood
14:38 - The Challenges of Publishing a Book on Fatherhood
21:24 - Balancing Family, Work, and Advocacy
25:13 - The Advocacy Consulting Group
31:28 - The Impact of Fathers from Different Generations
35:16 - The Impact of Positive Father Involvement
44:24 - The Importance of Expressing Love and Affection
51:10 - Retaining Childlike Qualities for Personal Growth
58:43 - The Daddying Film Festival: Encouraging Children to Explore Fatherhood
01:02:36 - Celebrating Acts of Kindness: Changing the Tone of Relationships and Communities
In a special episode that traverses the intricate landscapes of fatherhood, education, and advocacy, we are honored to host Allan Shedlin, a beacon for families and the force behind the Daddying Film Festival (D3F). Allan, whose career spans from the classroom to influential policy advisory roles, shares his profound journey into the realm of 'Daddying'—a concept he defines as the nurturing, lifelong commitment to fatherhood. This discussion sheds light on the evolution of fatherhood, the significance of early education at the National Elementary School Center, and the transformative power of positive dad involvement.
Allan Shedlin, founder of REEL Fathers and DADvocacy Consulting Group (DCG), has dedicated his life to elevating the importance of involved fatherhood. His work, deeply rooted in his experiences as a father and grandfather, has led to the creation of the world’s first film festival exclusively dedicated to celebrating and promoting positive father involvement: The Daddying Film Festival and Forum.
For details on how to submit your films, important dates, and to dive deeper into Allan Shedlin's work and the mission of DCG and D3F, check out the show notes and our website. Explore key blog posts that offer a snapshot of Allan's perspectives and the festival's mission:
Join us in this compelling exploration of daddying with Allan Shedlin, and be part of a movement that celebrates the heart and soul of fatherhood through the powerful medium of film.
Chapters:
00:00 - Introduction to Alan Shedlin
01:15 - The Creation of the Real Fathers Film Festival
05:03 - The Importance of Finding Strengths in Children
06:26 -The Concept of 'Daddying'
10:14 - The Journey to Writing a Book on Fatherhood
14:38 - The Challenges of Publishing a Book on Fatherhood
21:24 - Balancing Family, Work, and Advocacy
25:13 - The Advocacy Consulting Group
31:28 - The Impact of Fathers from Different Generations
35:16 - The Impact of Positive Father Involvement
44:24 - The Importance of Expressing Love and Affection
51:10 - Retaining Childlike Qualities for Personal Growth
58:43 - The Daddying Film Festival: Encouraging Children to Explore Fatherhood
01:02:36 - Celebrating Acts of Kindness: Changing the Tone of Relationships and Communities
you you Welcome to today's episode of the Super Daddy Club Podcast. We're thrilled to introduce Alan Shedlin, a true champion for families. Alan's journey has taken him from classrooms to shaping policy at the highest levels, touching lives as a teacher, principal, and advisor to the U.S. Secretary of Education. Beyond his professional accolades, Alan's heartbeat strongest for his role as a father and grandfather, extending his love and guidance as a bonus to so many. He's the visionary behind Real Fathers, R -E -E -L Fathers, and the Advocacy Consulting Group. Together, they created the Dating Film Festival and Forum. It is the world's first and only film festival focused exclusively on promoting the importance of positive dad involvement for kids and families. Alan, welcome our listeners and their children to enter the film festival where your kids get to produce a 10 minutes film, which is submitted to a panel of judges. who are also children with prizes for the winners. For more information, check out the show notes and our website. In the meantime, enjoy the show. You've been in the game for 20 plus years, but it's still relatively new to a lot of people. It is also fairly new in the online sphere. Like I feel like even with our podcast, like with the level of technology today, previous fatherhood podcast didn't have the same, like technology wasn't where it was today. And so was daddying something that was like in lost art, dying art, and it got revived. We can look at it so many ways, right? Yes, exactly. So actually this is the 30th year for me because I coined that term daddying in 1994, exactly 30 years ago. Yes, it was before any of this technology. And I could have told you 30 years ago that there were three or four organizations that were focused on, I guess, what most people call fatherhood. I don't call it that. I call it that, Inc. And now there is one around every corner. So I can say that this is the 10th podcast that I have done in the last eight days. It's a podcast in the last eight days. That is very significant. Yeah. And it's amazing to me. It's amazing to me, actually. So I think that the whole popularity of social media and so forth is really just moved us forward in an unbelievable pace recently. Yeah. Because with traditional media, there just wasn't this avenue, this access simply wasn't there. And you even see it now where like political candidates will go onto. podcast and such platforms to be able to actually connect with people directly. So this is where the people are. You know, when politicians, since you mentioned that dreaded word, when politicians decide, you know, they're not going to stay in office anymore, they often give us their excuse. They want to spend more time with their families. You and I know that ain't the truth, but that's what they say because it's quote politically correct. And it just occurs to me even saying that term that that's an oxymoron. There is no such a thing as politically correct anymore. That's a whole other discussion. I'm afraid. Now, okay. If you can take me back here about this, what was the landscape like 30 years ago? Because you had mentioned there was maybe like three organizations. Were you already a teacher at that time? Where I was in my own personal life. So I have three daughters. They're all over 50 years old now. So we do the math, they were in their 20s. Two of them were married. Actually, all three of them were married. One of them had a child and then another one was expecting. So I was on the verge of becoming a grandfather also. So I had been a teacher to begin with, children with autism and also children who were labeled severely emotionally disturbed. Sort of jokingly during that period of my life when people ask me, what do you do? I told them I was an emotionally disturbed teacher. And one of the survival mechanisms, frankly, if you're dealing with children who are that profoundly disturbed and disturbing, and I always also used to say you should be calling them emotionally disturbing. rather than disturbed is that it's important, I think, if you're going to be good at your job, to be able to find humor in some of the really strange things that they do. Obviously not laughing at them and not in front of them, but, you know, when you're in the faculty room to be able to say, my God, you can't believe what happened today in my classroom. The term in English, I think when you use the word special, usually has a positive association. But at least in the US when you put the word education afterwards, it usually has a negative connotation. I was a special ed kid. I always believed it was positive to be a special ed teacher. Why? Because you really needed to look very carefully at each child as an individual and you needed to find what were their assets, what were their strengths so that you could build on it. And so I always thought it was positive. And I wondered what would happen if that was your mindset and you were dealing with quote average kids or gifted kids. What would happen if you, do you know what, what an IEP is? IEP? No, what does that stand for? So an IEP is a requirement if you have a quote special ed child. The school system is required to create an IEP, which stands for individual education plan. I always believe and still believe that every child should have an IEP, not just those who have quote disabilities or handicaps or whatever terms people use. So I wanted to see what would happen if I use that mindset of looking for the strengths and the assets and building and what makes each kid a different learner. What would happen if I switched from being in the setting I was in if I found a school for gifted children? And so I ended up at a very young age, 34, becoming the principal of a school for gifted children in New York City. And I did use that mindset. But also as a principal, I had a rule that you couldn't complain as a teacher at a faculty meeting unless you were willing to offer a suggestion on how to improve what you were complaining about. And after eight years at the school, I had three things that I wanted to complain about. And I thought, you can't, you're not allowed. You gotta... figure out how to deal with it. And so I left the job and I created something which after one year became the National Elementary School Center. And that was located also in New York City and East Harlem. And the mission of the National Elementary School Center was, first of all, distinguish and to honor the importance of the earliest school years. So usually in most cultures, they think the higher up you go on the educational ladder, the more important it is. I believe the opposite. I believe it's the beginning. That's the most important op -ed. I tell people that when they call your PhD, your terminal degree, it says if it would kill you to get it. So the first thing was to distinguish the importance of the earlier school years. The second mission was to, if you're a special ed teacher, you are used to talking with other professions that work with children. So I was used to talking with psychiatrists, psychologists, neurologists, social workers, and so forth. When you're in regular education, that never happens unless there's a problem. And I missed that cross -fertilization. And so that was the second thing I wanted to address. And the third thing was having worked in both public schools and independent schools. When you're in one or the other, you sort of view the people who work in the other as almost adversaries. And I thought that's ridiculous. It was never my own adversary. And, you know, so that was the focus of the National Elementary School Center. And I ran that for 10 years and then got burned out trying to raise enough money to keep it open. Cause it was what most people referred to as a nonprofit. I referred to it as a social profit organization. And I had no idea what I was going to do next. And a friend had had a discussion with my three daughters and came to me and said, I don't know what you're doing next either. But the way they speak about you as a father, you need to write a book on fathering. Yeah. What could be more flattering and more rewarding for me than hearing that's how my daughters thought about me. But my response was fathering isn't the book. And they said, what are you talking about? I said, fathering is a one time biological act and it requires no commitment at all, just a shot of DNA. And that's not a book. I can write about that in a paragraph. So again, not criticizing without offering a suggestion, I coined the term daddying kind of on the spot. And it was, and still is as I think about it, what happens when fatherhood and nurturing intersect. And that's a lifelong process. That's not a one -time biological act. And so that's where I was. I had no idea. how I would go about writing a book on that, eh? None. I had written a lot in education, but nothing about being a dad. And so where would you begin? So you begin, I guess, by thinking of yourself as a father, thinking of yourself as a son, thinking of yourself as a grandson. And then kind of uniquely, I guess, there's a four -year -old who was in pre-kindergarten at my school. asked me what I did as a principal. What is your job? And I said, I'm happy to tell you, Billy, but I'd really love to know what you think I do. And Billy said, as a four year old, and I can still picture it, and it was more than 40 years ago, he stroked his chin like he was this very wise old man. And he said, I think the principal is like the daddy of the school. And I said, that's the best definition of my job, Billy, I've ever had. Now I know why I'm exhausted every day, because there are 500 of you. And so I referenced that. And then I had a kind of unusual thought, I guess, which is if daddying is a product, and you want to improve a product, let's say a car, what do you do? You talk to the consumers of the car. You talk to the consumers of the car. the consumers of daddying. And so I did 28 focus groups with kids, the consumers of daddying in three different countries. The kids were as young as five and as old as 21 in each of the groups. They were like age, so it was like five and six year olds and maybe there was another group of 19 through 21 year olds. And I had a protocol of questions I asked, probably the most common and significant one would be if you could create the most excellent dad you could imagine, what would he be like? And so when I was finished with all of those things, I thought I had a fairly good outline for a book. I found an agent who said, have you interviewed dads? And I said, no. She said, why not? I said, too obvious. She said, that's cute. Now go do it. So at that point, when I finished my book proposal, which is now 20 years ago, I thought I had a pretty good proposal for a book and I had interviewed one -on -one about 50 dads. I've now interviewed 205 dads, one -on-one from 20 different countries, ranging in age from 16 to 104. The book never got written. The book was rejected by eight publishers, through the agent, who all said exactly the same thing. Best book proposal we've ever seen. Perfect guy to write the book. But men don't read, men don't buy books, nobody ever heard of you, and no book on fatherhood has ever been a best seller. So the editors liked it, but the marketing department did not like it. And there's a giant irony lendo in the book. That is that they didn't do their homework well because there was a bestseller about fatherhood. And the irony being that it was written by Bill Cosby. The height of his fame as before is infamy. It made me frustrated, sad, angry. I didn't actually get to talk to the marketing department. If I did, I would have said, I don't expect men. to buy the book. Yes, men do read, but I don't expect men to buy the book. I expect women to buy the book and give it to men. So it might be wives, might be girlfriends, might be mothers, might be mothers -in -law, might be daughters, but I never got to speak to the marketing department. So as I'm feeling sad and as I'm feeling a need to address so many of the issues that I heard during my interviews, both with kids and with dads, I thought I have to do something. And I saw a movie in 2003, a little more than 20 years ago now. It was one of the three Academy Award nominees for best documentary movie and it was called, it is called, My Architect, A Son's Journey. And it's about written by a son named Nathaniel Kahn, trying to learn about his father who he knew very little about. by studying his architecture and interviewing the people who had commissioned him to do the architecture. And what he learned was an extraordinary story. So it's not just about architecture. It's just an amazing movie. And I cried through about half of it. And at one point I wish my father was sitting next to me because I would have loved to talk about issues that came up in the movie. that would have been very difficult for me to spontaneously bring up. And that was the idea 20 years ago for using movies that way to enable discussion between fathers and kids or father figures and kids about issues that were important. So I didn't then jump into doing a film festival, although it was an idea then, but did a workshop in New Mexico on helping fathers become more involved in a particular program in New Mexico. And I did something that the person who invited me to do this thought was unusual. She didn't say unusual, she said crazy. She said that was the craziest thing I ever saw anybody do with a group of people and it was really effective. Do you have any other crazy ideas? I said, well, I don't think my ideas are crazy, other people do. So I told her I had the idea to do a film festival called the Real, R -E -E -L -S, and a movie real, the Real Fathers Film Festival. And she said, I love the idea, you need to do it in Santa Fe, New Mexico. And I said, why? She said, because it's an art colony, the name of the city is the city different, people will love the idea. So I said, well, let's talk more about it. I had a friend in Santa Fe who is a documentary filmmaker and she and I had actually made two very short films, a year or two earlier, on children prenatally exposed to drugs and alcohol. They were 10 minute long film. So I called her up and I said, Deborah, do you want to work on this with me? And she said, yes, that's what a documentary filmmaker is eager to have people use films in that way, use them as a way to get into discussions. I said, well, Deborah, if we work together, I have three requirements. One, we have to have fun. Two, we have to be immensely proud of whatever it is we create. And three, it needs to be exquisitely sensitive to the culture in which we're doing this. So you and I know we can do the first two because we already have. How do we make sure it's sensitive to the culture of New Mexico, which is very different than the culture in Washington where I live now or New York where I lived or Connecticut where I live? So we started talking to people in the culture, Head Start centers, big brothers, big sisters, girls clubs, boys clubs, veterans group. And we said, we have this idea for a festival. Would you support it? And the answer was, yes, it's a wonderful idea. But we're having a lot of trouble attracting fathers to our programs. Would you create something just for us? And I think you've already discovered I'm a very mean person. And so I said, no, we won't create anything for you. What do you mean? I said, no, we'll create something with you, but not for you. And so that's what we did and took me away from the idea for the film festival for 17 years. We did programs with all of those groups, including in a penitentiary and with the World Bank and Head Start and all these different groups, Native American Pueblos. And then three years ago, before I grew my beard and I was shaving, there was this really old man looking back at me from the mirror. And I said, Alan, what happened to that film festival? So three years ago, knowing nothing about film festivals, I set out to create the Dating Film Festival. And so we're now in year three. It's a little more of an answer perhaps than you were counting on, but once I get started, it's like, you know, I'm a windup toy and off I go. No, no, I fully, fully anticipated that. And there's so many things that you touched on. Is there any way for you to go back and kind of like even continue to advocate what you were seeing back there because there is really something there. So one of the lucky things about my constitution is that I don't need much sleep. So if I sleep six hours, that's a full night's sleep for me. It's usually closer to five. And the reason that I feel fortunate about that is because that gives me 19 hours to do stuff. But there is a limit, even with 19 hours every day. I also have five grandchildren in addition to the three children. And as you might suspect, I'm very much engaged and involved in their lives. And it's a great joy for me. So the answer to your question about going back to the whole education piece of it no i'm not able to do that do realize even with those nineteen hours that there's a limit to what can get done. I do it now by offering it out opportunities like this to talk about it somebody else will maybe take those ideas and run with them. When are my daughter's was a teacher she's now retired when my grand daughter's is now a teacher so they know very well about some of these things and hopefully you will like a spark for them. I'm able to dress up but i can't take that on anymore as my main thing you know when i started the dating film festival and forum not even three years ago i saw at a flea market. star, a hen wrought star out of tin and on it was one of my mantras. And written on that star was, leap and a net shall appear. You have to be a little crazy, I think, to believe that. And I am a little crazy. So did I know anything about film festivals? Not really. I was aware of them. I volunteered, helped a friend out who was part of a film festival and just in a way serve wine and stuff like that at her film festival. But did I know anything about creating or running a film festival? Nothing, zero. So you gotta be a little nuts to jump in. And so I am learning, it's a very, very steep learning curve and it's way more time consuming. I was almost gonna say difficult, but I think if you like what you do, You don't think of it that way. So it's very, very time consuming and making sure that it happens, that you get the kind of quality going back to that idea of having fun and having it being something you're proud of takes a great deal of time and energy much more than I ever would have imagined. And so there's no time between family, friends, writing. You know, we do a weekly blog, which I'm inviting you to submit a guest blog for us. So we send those out every Thursday. We just starting our fourth year or maybe just ending our fourth year. Anyway, I write maybe two or three a month. And then Scott who is works with me on communication stuff, maybe writes one and then we have a guest blog once a month. So love for you to think about writing one. So. I can't jump back into the working on the education stuff at this point. It's not possible. Yeah, no, I totally understand. If anything, I'm going to make a clip of that segment where you're talking about that and just blast it online because it is so important. Now with your team, you have the advocacy consulting group as well. Where was that born exactly within the trajectory? That was born probably about five years ago. And basically what I did is get in touch with some of the people I come across and work with over the last 30 years who were outstanding people and had a real sensitivity and a similar sense, which I get from you as well, of a calling about what we do. So it's not a job. It's like a tap me on the shoulder and said, you're doing this. And it's a calling. You know, you started to ask a little earlier about my own experience as a dad with my dad. And what I say about my dad is I definitely love my dad. And I know my dad definitely loved me. And I always knew, you know, the expression, somebody who will always be there in a pinch. I don't know if you've heard that expression. So you just know you can count on them if you were in a bad position and you say, I know they'll be there in a pinch. And what I say is I needed more than a pinch. So yes, I knew he would be there if I needed him and some kind of catastrophe or emergency, but he wasn't there very much. He was a businessman. He was away from our home for 250 days a year. 25 years and when he was home he wasn't home he was in his mind somewhere else selling what he was making a manufacturing. I know i'm making this part up of course i know that when i was in utero he already was lecturing me about going into the family business certainly it's one of my earlier memories on not in utero but. later on in my life that he was telling me that. And it wasn't until I went away to college when I was 18 that it dawned on me that I didn't need to do that. I was told for 18 years I needed to do it, but it never occurred to me I had a choice. And I always loved children and working with children. And so that's when I decided this is what I'm going to do. Didn't go over very well. way with my father. I'm the middle of three brothers, so happily I had an older brother who was already in the business, but that didn't help with my father because he took it personally that I was rejecting him. And I guess in many ways, maybe I was, but it wasn't about rejecting him. It was about moving towards something I really felt called to do. And so if you think about it, My oldest granddaughter will be 27 in a little over a month. And we were talking, as we often do, and we were talking about the whole notion of this being a calling. And what I said to her is my father called me many, many times about what to do, but it wasn't a calling and it wasn't nearly as loud as the calling I felt. And she was struggling with as we all do at around that age or maybe a little bit earlier, maybe a little bit later is what do I want to do when I grow up? First answer to that is don't grow up. But what jobs do I want to have as I get older? If that's what your question is, you don't need to decide today what you're going to do for the rest of your life. You really don't. You need maybe for the next year, maybe two years, maybe five years if you've gone to school for it, but you don't need to immobilize yourself by thinking, my God, I have to decide now when I can never change my mind. And so she said, what do you mean? And I said, well, look at me, look at what I've done. And she said, yeah, you've changed a lot. And I said, yes, I have, but there's been one consistent element hasn't there. And she said, I guess so. I said, yeah, there has, it's always been a bad children. So you're not a bad daddying because you ain't a daddy unless you have a child. So it's really still about children. It's just from a different angle and a different vantage point. And now it's a twofer. So it's not only about kids, but it's about kids and their dads. And it's more than that because of the dad. is positively involved in his child's life. It's not only good for the child, it's good for the dad. And if it's good for the dad and they're in a family situation, it's good for the family. And if it's good for the family, it's good for the community. So it's really much more than just that. So I guess in that way it's expanded, but the core is still children. So really, just quickly going back to my dad. So I was very determined from the earliest memories I have of making sure, and I always wanted to be a dad, making sure that I would be there for my children, both physically and psychologically and emotionally and spiritually and all of the other things that go along with being an involved dad. You know, that's like, I don't know my father and one of the things that, but I'm very much like him. And that's what my mom always told me. Like you guys don't know each other, but you're so similar. It scares me. And I am that busy father. And my worst fear is always to end up being like that busy absent father who's kind of there exactly like you grew up. There's actually a lot, like when I was reading about you, there's a lot of you that I could see in me. And that's why I just kind of like stop reading. And I was like, no, I'll just go speak to the man and I'll just hear the story from him directly. Was it just a thing of fathers of that generation? And what are you seeing with fathers of this generation that is different? Because from my perception, I think we're having a net positive effect compared to what we're seeing back then to now. So I think we're moving in the right direction altogether with the involvement element. It may be. for people like yourself or people like myself is just not having that father present and knowing what that's like that we swore to not be like that despite me being a father, yourself being a very busy individual, a visionary, always kind of like pushing the envelope forward and whatnot. What are the big differences from that generation of father to this generation of father and where are things going? So I think it's a really, really good question because that thing doesn't take place in a vacuum. It takes place in a... much broader social context and the social context of course is different now than it was when my dad was a dad who by the way didn't have a father in his life either. But my father came from a very poor background and so in his mind part of the definition of being a really good dad was providing so that we had a roof over our head, plenty of food to eat, went to good schools and all of that kind of stuff. That was part of his definition. And in that generation, it was you were a good breadwinner and you were disciplinarian. Those were kind of the two things that in your mind was what a father was supposed to be like. And so when I do my daddy interviews, and I still do them occasionally, not nearly as intensely as I did to get to that 205 number. So I do a few a year now, and I do them for different reasons now. Initially, the reason I did it was for me, for my research. Now, the reason I do it is for the dad I interview because at the end of the interview, which lasts a short one would be an hour and a half. And there's some that have lasted four or five hours. And at the end of the interview, when I say thank you so much for your time, there's not a single father doesn't say no, thank you so much. you know, for asking those questions and for listening to me. So it's different. But when I interviewed dads who are 50 years old or older, and one of the questions I ask is, did your father ever tell you he loved you? And if you're 50 or older, hence that generation, what I usually hear is no, my father never told me he loved me, but I knew he did. men in that generation didn't say those things. So I think that the generations indeed have changed. There's still too many men who've never heard that. I ask a similar question. Did your father ever tell you he was proud of you? I don't get very many affirmative answers to either one of those questions, which is too bad. So I make definitely a point on a regular basis, maybe too often. to tell my kids and my grandkids that I love them, not as often that I'm proud of them, but yes, I also say that. So I think it's the generations have changed and it depends a lot as you've suggested on what your circumstances are. So if you come from an impoverished background and you wanna become a good father, part of your definition of what that is, a big part. is I want to make sure my kid, you know, has proper clothing and so forth. So I do understand that mindset of like, okay, food, clothing, shelter, if the next generation does not have to worry about these basic things, they can worry about being the best of this being the best of that, because they have that level of comfort that they don't have to worry about this. And so that's where it's like, I definitely do not hold any judgment against that previous generation of fathers, because again, they're being raised in a completely different culture. completely different ways where for us, I mean, I think about it, I didn't tell my mom I love her until I was maybe like in my teenage years before I actually told my mom I love her. And I look at it with my son, he is so affectionate because I am so affectionate and it's a reciprocal thing that it shocks me because I put it in perspective for myself and I didn't have that. Like I don't want my son to go as long as I want without uttering those words to either me. or his mom, like I really don't want that. So I made sure that we say those words very often. And it was actually just this last week here where I noticed even if he's going outside skating, playing, he comes back and give me the hug and say, I love you. I'm like, wow, like you're going to be a different generation of men. So how old is your son? My oldest son is eight years old and my youngest son, he's about 15 months old now and the family is expanding. Like we came here, like my mom too, she's, very fortunate in a way where she's also been blessed with many grandchildren. It's just time is flying, but she's been very fortunate where she's like, she's just got all these grandchildren running around now. And to me, that is a testament to God or, you know, for other people like the universe giving back to her in a sense for everything that she's got us through. And to again, that story of like, going from generation to generation. My mom always said this thing where she, she always say life is like a relay race where we pass the baton. Going back to the idea that fathers don't read, fathers don't consume this and that. Yeah, fathers, we're a different bunch, right? Like if something captivates us, I'm sure we'll get into it. Like we wanna move, blah, blah, blah. We're a different bunch. But for our platform, interestingly enough, I always had the same idea too where sometimes like, I also feel like women are very important to like save us from our own selves and from our own mentality. And they're a lot more willing to go out there and seek to improve themselves in ways that we do not always look at immediately. So it's almost like a natural process to me that women are the one who are like, Hey, man, you need to listen to this. Or they're trying to figure out how to fix things and solve things. And they're willing to ask for help in ways that we're not willing to ask for help. Yeah. There's, there's so much thing that you're saying is just bringing up all these. thoughts and I hope they're not all disjointed, but like, what are your thoughts on some of my reflection here? One of the things that I've learned is that for me, the apex, the zenith of daddying is when you allow yourself to understand that nurturing your children is nourishing to you. So somebody asked me, I don't know a year or two ago, Alan, you've been at this for a while now. do you think you've made a contribution to the field? And I said, well, you know, that's a fair question to ask me. It's not one that I've thought about. And I don't think that way. But the answer was, yes, I do. And the contribution I think I may have made is that there was so much research and there still is, thankfully, and it's ongoing and it reinforces the prior research that. When a father is positively involved in the lives of his child, in the life of his child or his children, all measures of social wellbeing go up. And there's no debate about it. I mean, it's absolutely proven hard research. Grades go up. Every measure of social wellbeing goes up, including health, including relationships, and including everything. but very few people had ever written about what's in it for the dad. So when you're positively involved, your measures of wellbeing go up as well. Certainly I know personally that's true for me and most dads that I know who are positively involved in their children's lives. That's true, but very few people had ever talked about that. And in my interviews with dads, I've hinted at some of the questions like, the most excellent dad you can imagine. Did your dad ever tell you he loved you? Did he ever tell you he was proud of you? And one of the questions that I ask is, has becoming a dad in any way positively impacted your life? And that is the only question that I ask that 100 % of the 205 dads say without a moment's hesitation. Absolutely. That's just a really important thing. I think the point out is that it's not just for the good of the kids. As I said earlier, it's your good for the good of your family, the good of community and the good of society. But all of that is pretty recent thinking for people to realize that we talked about the generation is reading something the other day about. how long it takes for a revolution or a dramatic change to take place. And if you think about the women's movement, which started now more than 60 years ago, and now it's just still becoming to be helpful to women and thus to everybody else as well. So going back to the very beginning of our conversation with the podcast and with, you know, the awareness of More involvement in the importance of the involvement of dads. That's still pretty new. 30 years is not a long time. So, you know, we see dads. I don't know if you saw the flyer. It's online somewhere. It's actually behind me too of our film festival that's coming up in Philadelphia, but I'll send you, or you can see it online. Actually the advertisement for it or the way we're announcing it. is we have a picture of the quote founding fathers in the United States, which is 237 years ago. And I have a friend who's good with Photoshop and AI. So I commissioned him to create those portraits and they are the of three of the founding fathers wearing their babies. And I call them not the founding fathers, but the founding daddies now that they're wearing their babies. and they're all smiling. You never saw any of those people smile before. So it's a way of calling attention to, you know, can we imagine and I know that you said you moved to Canada from the Congo, right? So you're probably not as familiar with, you know, the founding fathers, you probably aware that George Washington was first president of the United States, but Imagine him carrying a baby. It's not even imaginable. Unless you have a warped mind like mine, when you ask somebody to do a picture of him carrying a baby. But he actually didn't have any children, which is kind of interesting. He's described as the father of our country, but he didn't have any children. Most people don't know and I didn't know that when he married, Martha Washington, she had two children. And so it always seemed like he had some children, but he didn't have any biological children of his own. So even the idea of him, you know, carrying a baby was kind of fun to imagine and it gets people's attention. So that was the idea. Okay. I wanted to ask you regarding films, Star Wars, Star Wars is something that I've been. first couple of movies quite a bit. And I came to understand it from the standpoint of like, man, this is really a beautiful love story. But on the other side, it's a story about fatherhood. And I just want to know if you can shed light on that because I can talk about it from the love perspective, blah, blah, blah. Because that's with my limited vision or perspective. That's what I was. But you start from the father element and it should be more obvious because it's like, Luke, I'm your father. I mean, they're dealing with a lot. So Linda, the reason I'm smiling so widely when you're talking about this is because I, I give a lot of presentations to groups and I was invited to give a presentation to a group of educators a few years back when star wars was really, especially the early ones were very popular. I often get bored or tired of hearing myself speak. So I decided I needed to do something to change it up a little bit. And so I said to this group, I've invited a special guest to come at the end of my talk to greet you. And the talk was maybe 40 minutes and I looked at my watch and I said, my God, we only have a few minutes. I wonder if he's arrived yet. And I bent down behind the podium. And when I stood up, I was wearing a Darth Vader mask. course it was like, who is this lunatic before us? And I said, I am your daddy. And then I said, can you imagine how different the story would have been if Doroth Vader had been Luke's daddy and not his father? It would have been great for comical relief. Yeah. So that's why I'm smiling when you're talking about it because. to me that was part of it. That's part of why the story is the story. And you're right, most people don't pick up on the fatherhood aspect and the daddying aspect of that movie. And it's really important. And it's again, one of the reasons we use film with the daddying film festival. And I don't want to neglect to say that the daddying film festival is children making films. up to 10 minutes long. They can use what I call the production studio in their pocket, which is a smartphone. Most kids have them. The film festival involves four different grade levels. So it's elementary school, middle school, high school, and undergraduate college. And the kids make the films and they submit them. And there are five themes this year. And when the kids submit the films, other children judge them, same age as the kids who are submitting them. So I do a short training with kids to be judges. And we make a distinction between being a reviewer and a judge. So those are two different things. And when they narrow, when the kids narrow it down to 10 semi -finalists in each age group, we send the 10 semi -finalists to people in the entertainment industry. and or educators and we say now we're down to five. This five finalists in each group earn$250 and then we put those five finalists online for a week and the public votes and the winner in each age group earns another$250 and they earn not an Oscar, not a Golden Globe, not an Emmy. or any of those, they earn an Atticus Award. And I don't know if you had to read in school, To Kill a Mockingbird, the book, To Kill a Mockingbird? No, I didn't get that. Do you know that book? I don't think so, no. No, so I highly recommend it to you. It's also became a movie, I believe in 1960. And the name of the father in the book, who is considered to be the best portrayal of a father, or a father figure in literature or a movie. His name is Atticus Finch. So the kids earn an Atticus Award and the title of the book is To Kill a Mockingbird. And so what the award looks like, it is a pedestal with a pair of mockingbirds, an adult, a parent and a child mockingbird on it. And then what we do is we show the winning films at a half a day forum. And then we break into small groups of adults and children to discuss the main topics or the main issues that came up in the films. Last year, the winning film at the elementary level was done by a brother and a sister who were five years old and eight years old, and they were living in Sweden, but they're Iranian. So I encouraged Trevon, maybe Trevon and his dad. to make a film and submit it. Deadline is March 25th, you have a whole month. Okay, I'll challenge them. Because they've already picked up the camera, so I don't think it'll be too hard for them. Yeah, and you know online, you probably have the link, which is pretty obvious, which is daddyinfilmfest .com. We have the archive of the films that won the last two years. This is only year three. Last year we received films from 21 different countries, which blew my mind. You know, because it was only year two, how do you know about this? So this year we're expecting films from more than 21 countries. Yeah, absolutely. No, we'll definitely. Yeah, I'll talk to Trayvon about that. And yeah, we will submit. Next year he could be a judge. This year we have enough judges, but now, but next year he could become a judge. The youngest judge this year is actually eight years old. So we don't have anybody at 15 months. That'd be an interesting judge right there. Yeah, exactly. Just hear it now. Right. You know, I was watching some videos online of you and there's this very important thing that you touched on and we've been circling around it throughout the show. And it's the concept of men being childish versus childlike. To kind of go back to what you pointed out about the Super Daddy Club and you're like, hey, where's the cape? It's very interesting because when I first came up with the idea of Super Daddy Club as a show and the name of the show, I was getting a lot of pushback and people were very curious. I had to explain myself and all this silly stuff. But one of the best explanation, at least to myself, that I gave and I started using that more and more once I figured out how to answer those questions was, you know, I like Super Daddy Club. It has kind of like a childish element to it, you know, not too serious, but when you dive into the content, it's very serious. But until then people are like, Super Daddy Club, like what is that? Yeah, I just wanted for you to touch base on that concept again on the show, cause I thought it was just so enlightening in terms of like what happens when a father's engaged and how does that affect them and how does that affect. you know, other behavior and how they interact with the people around them. Yeah. Well, I'm thrilled that you picked up on that because I have two favorite words, not, not many people have favorite words, but I have two favorite words. The first one, which describes what you just said. And the word is neotony and it's spelled N E O T E N Y. And then definitely makes a distinction as you did between childish and childlike. They're two very different things. And Neontani refers to the retention of childlike qualities into adult life for the improvement of the species. That is important. So what it refers to is that as we get older, we tend to lose the childlike qualities of. willingness to ask questions, willingness to make mistakes, willingness to be silly, willingness to take awe in a sunset or a sunrise. So there are many, many things that we somehow lose as we get older. And my notion is we don't want to do that. And we can go right back to the beginning where we talked about my focus on the elementary level as opposed to, you know, people used to say to me, and yes, this was a long time ago, people probably still feel the same way. There are very few men who work at the elementary level. I don't know about you when you were in school, my first male teacher was in fifth grade. And he, by the way, was the most important role model and still is in my life as a male. His name is Joe Papaleo, he's not alive anymore, but I'm actually still in touch with his son and his grandson. So it's really thrilling for me to have that consistent relationship with that family. But people would say to me, you're not serious, Alan, about being an elementary school principal. You really want to be a high school principal. No, maybe you really want to be a superintendent of schools or maybe you want to be a college president. And my answer is no. I have no desire to be any of those things. I want to be an elementary principal because it's really the earliest years of formative where their habits are. And you know this as a dad of an eight year old in a 15 month old, that it's those years that are the single most important. And you know, to just hold on what I referred to and still referred to as the desperation to learn. Remember, observing a teacher, which is part of my job as a principal, but observing a teacher. And I heard her say to one of the boys in class, and it was a second grade class, which is probably around the grade that Tripan's in. And she said to him, would you stop asking me so many questions? Can you see I'm trying to teach you? So of course, after class was over, the teacher and I had a little discussion. That's how kids learn. They ask a lot of questions. I know it drives you crazy, but please don't ask them to stop asking you questions. That's how they learn. And so for me, is holding on to those childlike qualities, being able to be silly, and I am known to be really silly, is incredibly important. And You know, what fascinates me, Lendo, is that everybody seems to want to be a teenager. You know, you see older people, adults, wanting to be like teenagers. You see little kids can't wait to be dressing and acting like teenagers. Teenagers are the most miserable people in terms of what they go through in terms of neither being adult nor being a child. And when we talk about the crisis in mental health, that's where it's the most intense and most severe. So it's kind of interesting that everybody wants to be that age. And, you know, I gave a, a graduation speech to a ninth grade class and the whole speech was using the word neonate. And when I asked the group, you know, the collective graduating class, why am I focusing only on neonate? What is this? do with your graduation and I had already engaged them and they knew they could be smart asses with me and they said, it has nothing to do with our graduation. And I said, well, I clearly disagree or I wouldn't be focused on it. I think it has everything to do because you guys can't wait to grow up. Guess what? Don't wish for that. Hold on to those childlike qualities. You can help but grow older. but you can help but you know, behave too much like an older person and lose those childlike qualities. So yeah, that I think it's the single the other, by the way, the second word that's a favorite is the word flourishing. So it's that word all the time. And it disorients people, you know, when they say, how you doing? and usually you're okay or I'm getting along or I'm on the right side of the grass or worse. But if you answer, I'm flourishing, it just totally disorienting to people, totally. Wow. I was actually gonna ask you what the second word was and I did not anticipate that at all. Well, it's funny. I have a granddaughter, one of my granddaughters, I have three granddaughters, but one of my granddaughters is a teacher, a special ed teacher. in California and she often calls me and wants to complain about something that's happened in her classroom or in life. And I always say to her, what's my rule when we speak? And she says, I know I have to begin by telling you something I'm flourishing about. I said, yup, that's my rule. I'm not listening to any of the other stuff until you do one thing. And it doesn't need to be. You know, like I just won the lottery. It can be, you know, a kid was really kind to me today or the dog can crap in the house or, you know, it doesn't need to be a big gigantic thing. Just look, let's look for the little things. And, you know, Linda, when I was a principal, you got sent to my office if you were caught being good. And I actually required it. And I had two weeks during the year I called positive week and. teachers were required during that week to send me a child they had caught being good. Of course, I expected it to happen all the time throughout the year, but on those two particular weeks, you had to. And I'd get to Wednesday and maybe one third of the teachers hadn't yet sent me a child who they had caught being good. And I would send them a note saying, you know, you have two days left to send me a kid. And I'd send part of your challenge for yourself is you're looking for something dramatic. I'm looking for the kid who holds the door for the rest of the class without being asked, or the kid who goes and gets a paper towel for somebody who spilled something and you didn't ask them to do it. So it's just these small acts of kindness that if you pay attention to them and you acknowledge them and really changes the tone of. household or in this case, the school and it changed the tone of the school dramatically because a teacher then said, okay, we've gone along with you. We agreed that the tone of the school has changed a bit. Why don't you ever catch us being good? So we added two more positive weeks during the year and I would devote the entire week to going from class in the classroom. observing and writing down something that I saw during my visit that was positive and letting the teacher know it. And that too, you know, just changed the tone of we're looking for the positive things. I wonder if you have ever told Trevon how much it means to you when he comes in and gives you a hug. No, no, because I was just, well, not just because, I mean, I haven't and. The epiphany just came to me last week of that affectionate element and it really hit me last week because again, he was just, it was probably the fourth time that he ran to go play outside, came back, get some water or something to the fact of it. Every time he was just making sure to give me a hug in between or just, and I was like, man, this kid is really, like there's something here, but I will have to tell him. Yeah. And I think one can overdo it. So when that's on. say every time or embarrass him. But just, you know, like almost a nonchalant, boy, it really feels good when you do that. Yeah, that's all. Just acknowledging and it also then provides you giving him words as well. Which sometimes kids don't have. They have the feeling but they don't necessarily have the word to go with the feeling. So sometimes just saying that. is really, really important. It's good modeling. You know, something that I'm like really proud of and I've been thinking about it as we're speaking here is I earned the term of, or at least the name or the title of Uncle Daddy. And that came from my nieces and Trayvon because I've been very much a very strong father figure in my nieces lives. they came upon where just as kids, they were confused where my nieces will call me daddy. And then Trayvon will say, that's not your daddy. And it's like, okay, kids. And so somehow, some way they went and worked it out and it became uncle daddy. And I've never let them know of how much I love that term because it's - Yeah, so you bring up another really, really important point, I think. My own children did not go to the school I was principal of and that was deliberate. would not have been a good idea. But sometimes their vacation time was different than my vacation time, even though we were both in schools. So they would come to my school on the days that they didn't have school. And since the kids had learned that I paid attention to their good behavior and so forth, the kids had kind of positive feelings about their principal. And it wasn't unusual for me to walk through the school for just children to come up and give me a hug. And it didn't occur to me how hard that was for my own children. It's just like you were talking about. No, he's not your daddy. He's my daddy is, you know, you're the uncle. You're not the daddy. So I became aware of that. At first I couldn't figure out what was, what was going on. But when my youngest daughter, the youngest of three, was pregnant for the third time. She said to me, Dad, I'm really worried about this baby is coming. And I said, what are you worried about? And she said, I'm worried that my heart isn't big enough and doesn't have enough love left over. So I looked at her and she sort of figured out kind of as she was saying that, like what, how I might be processing it. So I said to her, what number are you in our family? And she said, I'm the third child. And I said, do you have the feeling that there wasn't enough love left over for you? And she said, no. And I said, you will discover that your heart has the infinite capacity to grow just as much as it needs to. And so you won't be surprised to know I have many I call bonus sons, bonus daughters, bonus grandchildren. I still see a little bit of a tinge with my children and my grandchildren. No, he's my father. No, he's my grandfather. But, you know, there is enough. We all have. And so whenever I see that, I say, do you have you lost anything? Has any of the love that I feel for you gone away? I don't think so. I was visiting my oldest granddaughter in August. She was beginning her first real job after graduating with a degree in social work. And she was beginning her career as a clinical social worker in Tennessee. So I make a point to visiting my grandchildren. All of them are in five different states at this point, so it ain't always easy. But I was determined to visit this oldest granddaughter. She got the job and was settled in Nashville, Tennessee. Casey and I were talking, I was there for three days. And I said to you, no, my whole life, people have admonished me for wearing my heart on my sleeve. I don't know if you know that expression. So they would say, Alan, you're a guy. Guy's not supposed to wear their heart on their sleeve. And so I said to Casey, you know what, after all of these years, I think they're right. Even though it's worked for me, I think they're right. So you know what I think I should do? I think I should roll up my sleeve and I should tattoo my heart right on my arm directly. So I won't wear it on my sleeve anymore. And she said, what a great idea. Let's get matching tattoos. So I said, let's see it Sunday. Let's find a tattoo parlor. So we found a tattoo parlor. We had to travel ways to get there, but it wasn't too bad. When we walked in, the tattoo artist looked at me and said, it's so kind of you to accompany your granddaughter for her tattoo. She looked at him and she said, no, it's the other way around. He said, no, come on, really? She said, no, really. I got a large heart tattooed on my upper arm. I advise Casey not to get a tattoo in the same place because even though they're more common and acceptable, still people make assumptions, especially with a young woman. So she has a matching tattoo on her ankle. But when I came back home, I started thinking you have four other grandchildren. They're going to wonder why you played favorites and you just got a matching tattoo with Casey. What about us? And I thought, no, I'm not getting more more tattoos all over. But I realized that the heart that I had tattooed, which I had drawn was open, just an empty heart. So I said, you each get to choose one word or one symbol and we'll put it in the heart. So all five of you will be on my arm. And so the The process of them each deciding what to put in there was really fascinating as to what each one wanted. So now the heart is full, literally and figuratively. I love that. I love that. It's a great place to leave it at. And I'll just mention lastly here, I'll get Trayvon and my nieces to work on a film together. Is that okay? that would be fantastic. Because they're a creative bunch. Well, you go on the website. It's really simple to submit them. We have a fee. That's because there are 3000 film festivals in the world. And until we did the first one three years ago now, we didn't charge a fee because people said, Alan, you have to charge a fee. Everybody charges a fee. I said, no, these are kids. I'm not charging a fee. But then I realized after the first year that if you. pay a fee, you're more likely to actually follow up because you paid some amount. So the fees are very modest, like $5 or$10. But there's no kid who is allowed to feel, I can't do this because I can't afford the$5 or I can't afford the $10. In that case, you just say, could you waive the fee for me? And the answer is, of course. So if it's any kind. No worries. It gets waived. No, absolutely. No, we'll, yeah, I'll get the kids to submit and we'll plaster this all over our social media. We'll promote this in everywhere we can. Cause that would be so important. Yeah. It will be your biggest cheerleaders. That's what I'll say. Good. And next year you come to Pennsylvania. If you can't make it this year, if you've never been in Philadelphia, it's really. It's a wonderful city to visit. Yeah, no, absolutely. There's yourself out there and there's another guest who we have on the show. And that episode is going to be on the importance of grandfatherhood and grand grand parenthood, I should even say, right? Yeah. And so which is basically what we've been talking about this whole episode here. So, but I'll leave that for that. But there are also another group of people that I need to visit in the United States. I haven't been there yet. So yeah, no, we definitely have a long relationship ahead of us. That's wonderful. Thank you, Linda. I appreciate it a lot. Absolutely. Thank you for everything you do. And even this conversation here was just so enlightening. And yeah, this platform is open for you anytime. Thanks so much. Absolutely. Absolutely. That was great. Yeah.